I get where you are coming from on the Elder Greek Gods but we can't apply an alinement to all of them or assign them all as falling into jerk territory, Each god has their own page on either this or Villain wiki is not both in Zeus's case, we should apply those sort of categories to individual pages not the whole. Hestia, Demeter and Hades for example are never morally ambiguous, Hestia is always charitable and selfless, Hades is always focused on rules and agreements and Demeter is always completely neutral, as a metaphor for nature itself, Only Zeus and Poseidon ever bullied anyone, Hera was reactionary, not a provoker and Hades was only applied punishment after death, Demeter and Hestia of course never came close. For the same reason we should not apply certain powers of each to the group as a whole we should also not apply quirks and alignments to the group, or any group for that matter unless said group is a hive-mind.
Imagine if we did that for groups like say the Justice League, applying Lawful Good or Arrogant Heroes to all of them just cause of a few stand outs like Superman.
I'm sorry but I disagree. Categories are given to organizations when they pertain to the organization as a collective. I fail to see how this is different. Otherwise why give categories to organization pages at all? I believe in judging the collective as a collective and individuals as individuals.
FACT: The Gods collectively act like jerks on numerous occasions.
FACT: The Gods collectively bully humanity on numerous occasions.
FACT: The Gods collectively are morally ambiguous because of the above.
This page is about them as a collective. And if they are something as a collective, than they are. Regardless of whether or not all of the individual Gods fit each of those categories. As it stands, at least two thirds of them have jerk, bully, and morally ambiguous moments.
2/3s would be 4 or more out of the six, tell me who other than Zeus and Poseidon bullies people, which myths stories plays can you site? which 4 or more of the 6 are Lawful neutral? And which 4 or more have constantly changing alignments? Site the information for me please.
Oh no I get Hera, she is the embodiment of a woman scorned, but see that is not bullying, that is reaction to others. I can't think of a sinlge myth where she decided to miss with another god or mortal just for the eviluls. Hades was an antagonist of a few myths but this is more to do with being a representation of death, I can't think of a single time he decided to be abjectly cruel just cause.
I locked the page to prevent a flame war, you should have talked to me before you altered the page.
I consider her actions to be sufficient to count for Heroic Jerk, Morally Ambiguous, Anti-Villain, and Fallen Hero. Hades also fits, especially considering you outright admitted he's sometimes an antagonist. And again, the Gods as a collective act like bullies, and as a collective fit all of the different categories you removed.
And as to your "Flame War" justification, disagreeing about something does not automatically equate to a flame war. Or where you thinking of an edit war? Regardless, this is between us, not multiple users. Locking the page was unnecessary and to me at least insulting because again, you went over my head and made it pretty clear that you don't care all that much what I think. Your actions have only made me more upset, not less. I don't intend to flame, but I am a lot less inclined to maintain a cheerful disposition right about now than I would have been otherwise.
I will be willing to re-ad some of them such as anti villain and anti hero since they change from myth to myth some times but bullies can't apply to even half of them, again to be a bully you need to provoke a situation not react to it, If you are willnig to leave off bullies, morally ambiguous, Heroic jerks and Lawful Neutral I will gladly apply the rest of your changes and unlock it for future use.
And yeah when an admin raises concerns about categories applying to a whole group, while you can agree to disagree you should not completely disregard them and change an article back, especially if that admin tries to contact you on the topic. You see you changed it before contacting me, that was the main reason I locked the page, not because we disagreed, otherwise I would have locked the Zeus page long ago. I also think i have an idea of how undermineing this is for you, and I am sorry for that, I assure you it is not to spite you but rather to enforce a standard for apllication of categtories.
They collectively count as Heroic Jerks. Zeus, Poseidon, and Hera. That's half of them. They collectively count as Lawful Neutral, as the gods collectively are most interested in maintaining order and ruling over the humans
They are collectively Morally Ambiguous for reasons that should be incredibly obvious. Especially since you just admitted that how good or bad they are changes from version to version.
Part of it was I didn't get your PM first. I edited the page before you sent your PM, or at least that's what I thought.
Well Poseidon was an out spoken anarchist, order was fairly far from his concenrs, Demeter and Hestia both forwent any offical authoiry of any kind and Zeus was alost always focused on actions no really laws, but see if you could assign a morallity to all of them then they aren't Morally Ambiguous are they cause we could categorize them couldn't we?
Ok sorry about locking the page then, since it was technical difficulties not ignoring I will unlock the page and apply several of your changes, though not all of them. Please continue this dialogue with me either here or on the live chat before altering anything else though.
But morally ambiguous how so? Again I can see that apllying to Zeus, but what about the rest? All their alignments and methods seem pretty solid, can you give me any stories where that would apply to the other 5?
While I have you there is another one I have been concerned, about for Zeus but I did not change to prevent undermining you, how does Fallen Heroes apply. I mean Zeus would jump from Chatoic Good to Lawful jerk but wouldn't Fallen heroes, over On & Off imply he stayed evil? Since myths had no establishment for what event came first and last (Well ok one or two do) how can we be certain he ever stayed antagonistic? That's not a make or break factor for Zeus but I am curious of your thinking on that one.
Well it pertains to them as antgonists. But their morallity never really changes, just whether they fall into roles as heroes or villains;
Using Hades as the best example of this, his morals never alter he is always big on enforcing mortality. When a mortal, like Orpheus, is seeking to undo death Hades becomes the antagonist but his motivations and morality have not changed you see. Make no mistake I can see how more than half would apply as On & Off heroes based on the change of their roles, but only Zeus's morals seem to change.
Hmm that actually brings up a good point, I dont think "Status dependent on Version" was added, since we are dealing with an ambiguous time-line here that should probably be added. But anyway what about the rest being morally ambiguous? When is Hera anything other than LN, or Poseidon anythyng other than CN or Hades anything other than LN or Demeter anything other than TN or Hestia anything other than LG? Please pardon the D&D nerdity of that statement by the way.
It has been about two hours since my last comment and I have not heard back from you, I'll assume you are no longer there, either because you got tired, your internet disconnected, real life issues or your talk page is simply not updating again, it is getting rather late here so I will turn in. Assuming you are still adamant about things like moral ambiguity, contact me when you get back, if not please don't add the categories. I will be turning in for now but checking over the next few days to see your response.